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Before, During, and After: Part 3

12 Nov

So, Mystery suggested that this phenomenon I’ve been talking about could be related to my sexuality and maybe I wind up feeling this way because of some sort of confusion.  I don’t doubt that such a thing is possible although, when beginning bi sex, there’s a whole lot of shit going on in one’s head about this, mostly along the lines of should I or shouldn’t I?

Oral sex is one of the most common fantasies a...

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Okay, with the assumption that the sex is consensual – and for the purpose of this writing – a guy (because I know guys better than gals) has this feeling of sexual duality and, at some point, decides, feels, and/or believes that taking the plunge is warranted; this part gets into the whole justification thing we do about anything we do.  He’s gonna be leery, mostly because hearing about this kind of sex and even seeing it isn’t the same as doing it so, yeah, there might be some fear or some related emotions ripping through his head.  At this point – before the fact – he’s telling himself that whatever’s gonna bug him will be worried about when the time comes and this makes sense.

So, finally, he runs into a guy he wants to do the nasty with, say, orally, which is the easiest way to begin with this.  As they’re “negotiating,” there might be red flags popping up in his conscious mind along with a whole lot of other stuff that runs along the lines of, “Do I really wanna do this?”  Now, in this before the fact moment, something just might tell him not to do this and, if it’s strong enough, it’ll make him chicken out – not all that unusual, by the way.  But let’s say he feels this and suppresses the feeling because, damn it, I just gotta do this!

Our hypothetical newbie bi guy does some mental rearranging, he and his soon-to-be partner get naked and go after each others’ cocks.  Consciously, this could be fucking with him and simply because until now, he’s never sucked another man’s dick and let alone touched one – creepy feeling but not one to cause a total freak out.  It’s give and take, it’s feeling good and he’s getting close to his release and, fuck, all of a sudden, something’s telling him that he shouldn’t be doing this and it’s a really strong feeling.

Where did this come from?  What made it appear?  Okay, he’s feeling this but he’s now too far into this to just stop, although some guys will call for a break – that can be good or bad.  The oral sex continues – that urge to release is more powerful than that other creepy feeling that’s now on hold and, booyah!  Nuts get busted, semen flows and, yeah, damn, that felt good… didn’t it?

He’s now done what he wanted to do in this; his justifications are firmly in place and his initial resolve to have this experience did its job… so why is he now thinking and/or feeling that this wasn’t a good thing to do or, even better, he didn’t like what just happened?

Guilty conscience?  That sense of breaking the moral code?  Some hind brain, primitive sense of incompatibility because of the imperative to procreate?  What the fuck just happened?  Why did it happen?

My friends, in a situation such as this, yeah, I can see some sense of guilt – for lack of a better word – being responsible; we’ve all been told and warned that this kind of sex isn’t approved of.  But, as I’ve asked in this little series, what makes this happen if the sex is boy/girl and there are no, uh, compromising issues in this, like the girl our hypothetical guy’s fucking isn’t his sister or other relative or someone else he’s not supposed to be throwing down with?

It’s something that I just don’t believe sexuality has anything to do with.  It appears to be a very mysterious thing going on with conscious thought versus subconscious… something.  That the ill and troubling feeling can appear no matter what kind of sex you’re having is what makes this whole thing quite screwy, at least in this blogger’s opinion.

I’ve been responsible for a lot of guys having their first time with another dude and, before the fact, I’ve seen quite a few of them get slapped with that troubling feeling and to the point where they chicken out; disappointing but not unexpected.  I’ve asked them their reason and the biggest one is that of it not feeling “right” or otherwise uncertain.  And I know how they feel… because even as experienced as I am in this, I’ve felt it as well… and I have no idea why.

I’ve been with women and we’ve both agreed that, yeah, we gotta do this thing!  Before the fact, yeah, there’s some shit rolling around in our heads – but our ability to justify shit tends to take care of that.  We get naked and, say, we’re 69-ing the shit out of each other and, pow – all of a sudden, whatever I’m doing to her has now become the absolute last thing I wanna be doing… and I feel rather shitty.  Now, whether I just stop or not isn’t really the issue, although I will admit that I’ve felt this but have continued, the thought here is to resolve whatever this was after the fact and I do have her pleasure to think about; I’m bound by my word and honor to deliver to her what I promised I would.

Been in the same situation and have had her call a stop to the action because of this exact same crummy, stinking, really fucking foul feeling.  Maybe we finish what we started, maybe we don’t… but where the fuck did this come from?  Or maybe we make it all the way to the end; we have the big O and dealing with the feelings washing over us but, some scant seconds later, maybe one or both of us are feeling like, shit, what the fuck did we do that for?

Is something in our makeup responsible for this happening?  Why doesn’t it happen all the time?  Yeah, maybe no one really cares about this other than those folks who want to know why we do what we do when it comes to sex, how it affects us, stuff like that.

I have the sense that maybe most of us will have this happen and, ultimately, not pay a whole lot of attention to it.  We might ponder it for a moment, like trying to figure out why it showed up when it did but, beyond that, it winds up on the shelf.  I think that our ability to justify anything we might do plays into the dismissal of such feelings, even if we’ve actually not done anything wrong – but something inside us seems to disagree with that assessment.  The fact that it’s inconsistent makes this whole thing, at least to me, intriguing.

Since the writing itch has been messing with big time this weekend, writing about this has been fun.  For those who might read this, eh, you’re probably thinking that I’ve taken leave of my senses to be talking about something that seems to not matter when it comes to getting laid.  I write for my own satisfaction but when I do, well, I try to bring my version of enlightenment to the stage by discussing stuff most people may see as being trivial and maybe even pointless; ya got laid, busted a nut, end of story and now it’s nap time or time to raid the fridge.

But is it really?  You mean to tell me that no one else out here in the blogosphere has ever wondered why they did something sexual and didn’t like it or otherwise felt funky after the fact or during the fact… and maybe even before the fact?  Huh?  I’m almost surprised that none of the experts who dabble in why sex goes screwy at times hasn’t chimed in… but, then again, maybe I know why and that’s because I’m talking about one’s feelings before,during, and after sex and that is sooooo private and discussing such things is insane and maybe even improper!

In any event, this has been fun; the writing itch is being scratched and it feels damned good!

 
42 Comments

Posted by on 12 November 2011 in Life, Living and Loving

 

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42 responses to “Before, During, and After: Part 3

  1. mysterycoach

    13 November 2011 at 08:54

    Personally 🙂 I’ve never discussed this topic but I remembered feeling that way off and on and learned what I wasn’t going to do in the future because I knew I’d made some kind of mistake for myself and how I was feeling at whatever point. However I talked about it more at length in part 2 this morning (over in the other post) so…I won’t go on and on here.

    Sometimes too I think it’s the other person and their stuff we sense… which is why I keep thinking about that connection thing and how much the whole act of sex, needs to have some feel of connection for one not to have these feelings come up and out. This much, for myself, is true. I explained it over there though (2nd post you made before this one)

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    • kdaddy23

      13 November 2011 at 12:47

      See, I don’t think it’s some “knowledge” that a mistake has been made, although a lot of people feel that way after the fact, like a girl winds up screwing her BFF’s boyfriend and the sex winds up being good – but after the fact, she feels bad because she’s broken the girlfriend code – I get this one and that’s straight-up guilt; you knew you shouldn’t have done it but did it anyway. I know that picking up on someone else’s vibe can rock the boat, like you’re wailing away on a hot babe and then you “notice” that her whole mood has changed for some reason and the fact that it came to your attention by some “mysterious” means could be enough to derail the hormone train… like you’ve sensed that she’s now feeling that she didn’t really want to get laid – but it sounded like a good idea at the time. What the hell happened with her that her horny plug got pulled?

      Now, guys doing guys is a bit of a different kettle of fish; we’re not so much about connecting in that sense as we are about getting our rocks off; yeah, we’re kinda common in that regard. I know that I wouldn’t hit on a guy and ask to suck his cock if I didn’t know with 100% certainty that this is what I wanted to do; I’ve had a conversation with my libido and my conscious mind and we all agree that, yes, we wanna do this. He agrees wholeheartedly, as evidenced by the tent being erected in his pants – and it’s on. It’s all good – I’m doing what I wanted to do and with what I’d call the minimum amount of connection required to proceed n this… and then, ugh – why am I even bothering with this? My brain automatically compensates for this by shoving the feeling aside so it can be dealt with later; the mood has been disrupted even if only for however long it took for the feeling to be felt – maybe a whole second if that – but it’s not enough to call a halt to the proceeding; then it’s just a matter of regrouping and finishing what I started.

      After the fact: Okay, the libido is happy – the itch has been scratched but there’s that thing I noticed that I need to look into. If the other guy is now returning the favor, okay, fine – I’m into this but I know I’m also examining that moment to see if what he’s doing makes it return or not and, nope, it hasn’t, he finishes me and now we’re either going to recharge and go again or we’re done and thank you very much. I’m now actively examining that feeling, trying to figure out what the hell it is and why it showed up when it did; shit, the last time I did this, there was nothing like this going on so, no, it’s not some guilt about being bi and sucking someone’s dick because if it were, I’d feel it every time… but I don’t.

      And that I can have this same feeling with a woman just baffles the hell out of me – it’s a mystery, Mystery! It doesn’t fall into any known “distraction” categories that I’m aware of and it doesn’t feel like guilt – I’m very familiar with what that feels like within myself. The only reason why I “waste” my time trying to figure this out is that I don’t like the way it makes me feel and, well, if something’s not making me feel good, I wanna know what the hell is going on – and I’ve yet to figure it out and perhaps I never will and more so if this is “me” fucking with myself subconsciously.

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  2. Lafemmeroar

    14 November 2011 at 21:30

    I read the trilogy of this topic. I’m glad I have a blackberry so I can catch up on your posts en route … Perhaps the uneasy feeling stems from sharing something intimate with someone who is not on “intimate” terms with you. I’m a serial monogamist and although I joke about my exes in all seriousness I really don’t regret being with them. So, I don’t have any personal sexual experience that I can equate with feelings of the before, during and after …

    To use an example from personal experience … I was at a bar and I met this guy who I thought was obnoxious but he had enough charm and wit to keep me interested. Since pickings were slim that night and my gf was talking to another guy I spent most of the night talking and laughing with him. He said some personal things I said some personal things–I guess it’s easy to say it with a stranger. Anyway at the end of the night when we said our goodbyes I regretted telling him something so personal about myself. I was kicking myself in the butt because in my opinion he hadn’t really earned the right to know that about me; yet I gave up the info anyway. I felt that I had put this stranger (for a time) on “intimate terms” with me and I couldn’t understand my reason for doing so aside from boredom and the fact that it was better than sitting at a bar alone while my gf flirted with another guy.

    To use a food analogy (please don’t think I’m crazy for this analogy) when I see a pint of coffee ice cream–I lust for it–I think of the creamy goodness slip sliding in my mouth and how it will coat my throat with cool delight. Before I know it, I’ve polished off the whole pint. Now I had a good time with every spoonful, but now that I’ve consumed it I get this feeling of “why did I just do that.” This angst stems from the fact that consuming a whole pint, while it felt good maybe wasn’t in my best interest, or that it was a reckless endeavor on my part since I didn’t need the extra calories. For me the angst is in doing something that wasn’t really “bad” but in doing something that really gave me no pleasure in the after math.

    So the idea of the should I or shouldn’t I relates to any “endeavor.” Granted this issue perhaps happens more in sexual encounters, but

    If this doesn’t make sense so be it, but this is my response to your posts. Damn this whole comment could have been a blog post on it’s own.

    Laters,

    Lafemme

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    • kdaddy23

      14 November 2011 at 22:18

      Could be, Lafemme… depends on what intimacy means to you (generally speaking). Sex, all by itself, is intimate and I think a lot of people kinda fool themselves into thinking that it’s only intimate when some other emotion other than lust in in the mix and those feelings are shared by the other person – and they’re wrong; sex just happens to work better with those emotions, that’s all.

      And you’ve never, ever, in your whole life, had sex and had a moment where you asked yourself why you did it? Or felt you shouldn’t be (or shouldn’t have) done it? Never felt that icky feeling before the fact – but dove in anyway? Not saying that it could never happen – just wanna confirm this for my internal database – and so I can honestly say I know someone this has never, ever happened to or in any context. You’d be unique in my experiences.

      I liked the ice cream thing; made me want to run out and get some coffee ice cream… and I don’t even like coffee ice cream! But, you hit upon a point I made in Part 2 to Mystery; perhaps – just maybe – it appears when the moment of pleasure ceases, even if for a micro-second – but it’s enough to make you ask yourself WTF? Seemed like a good idea at the time – and it’s not like it wasn’t enjoyed… but now you’re sitting back thinking of reasons why you shouldn’t have done something you just enjoyed doing.

      Wacky, huh? Obviously, it’s something that just doesn’t apply to sex – I just happened to have my mind way in the gutter when the original thought hit me.

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      • Lafemmeroar

        14 November 2011 at 22:31

        I joke about it on my blog, but I’m a serial monogamist and I’ve talked about it on my blog as well. So, the answer is I’ve never had that icky feeling but dove in anyway. But when I was younger, I’ve had the icky feeling of making out with a guy I didn’t really know but I sure had a good time during. Now I’ve said WTF after a break-up and when I was younger I asked myself did I really go out with that guy? But in retrospect I don’t’ regret it as some of these long lost men are fodder for laughter now.

        I don’t think your mind was in the gutter … what confounds me is your icky feeling. Did you not like the person after sex? I’m not sure that the posts answered that question or maybe I just missed it. I’m the type of person that ruminates sex and most of the time I’ll talk myself out of it. This is why my experience on this subject has always been of the relationship kind. And even when it wasn’t a serious relationship it was a regular thing and it was sooo good that we both came back for more.

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      • kdaddy23

        14 November 2011 at 23:00

        Well, admittedly, if I didn’t like the person from the beginning, I wouldn’t have had sex with them in the first place – that’s just plain silly, right? Yep, people have pissed me off during sex and made me not like them from the point they pissed me off going forward – and if they made me angry, the sex stops immediately. Nope, this is something else and, as I said way back when, I’m not the only one who’s had this mysterious feeling creep up on them at some point and put the WTF thought into their head. If it confounds you, imagine how it would confound me and I know that I can’t explain it. Like I said, I know it’s not guilt or regret or even apprehension; I know what these feelings feel like… but this thing?

        Now, if I didn’t like myself after the sex, well, I know what that is – and that’s me messing with myself because chances are I just did something I know I shouldn’t have done, ignored the “warnings” so I could do it – had fun doing it – and now… I’m guilty… ’cause I shoulda known better. Now, a lot of the women who’ve mentioned this to me has said that such a thing has hit them and the best they can describe it as a feeling of not being “right” – but they’re having fun up to that point – but it’s not guilt. And, sometimes, I’ve known that they’ve felt this hit them – and don’t even ask me how I knew because I have no idea – I just knew it. It makes me stop and ask, “Are you okay?” and even if they say they are, okay, we’ll proceed… but now I’m REALLY paying attention to them. And, of course, some of the fellas I know have reported the same thing and they’ve even sought me out with the hope I could make sense of it for them… like I can make it make sense to me, huh?

        It’s just strange. If, in the grand scheme, it means anything, I have no idea. I’ve examined it from time to time; maybe it was some kind of warning? Well, nothing bad happened afterward to anyone so, no, that couldn’t be it. No “connection” with the other person? Can’t be that because I wind up making enough of a connection to screw someone; part learned thing, part intuition and if I can’t do it – or justify it to myself, I don’t do it; used to piss my ex off big time because obligatory sex isn’t my idea of fun.

        Ah, so you have experienced it! So noted. You had a good time but it wasn’t so much… but it didn’t feel like guilt or some other emotion you’d recognize. If so, you understand what I’m saying. Oh, and thanks for sharing, too!

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  3. Lafemmeroar

    14 November 2011 at 23:18

    I’m so intrigued by this topic because I want to understand it. If it’s not guilt, regret or apprehension (although this feeling would be in the before part) then what is it? What is the feeling about it being right in the after math? You mentioned in an earlier comment that sex is a form of intimacy albeit not the emotional kind. Sex is a form of physical intimacy, but perhaps physical intimacy has it’s levels.

    Oh well, this was an interesting exchange 🙂

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    • kdaddy23

      14 November 2011 at 23:46

      It is intriguing, ain’t it, and more so since I can’t really explain it or nail it down. Okay, lemme see if I can break this down. If I had to assign a number to this, I’d have to say that if I had sex, say, ten times – and gender notwithstanding – one of those times, I MIGHT be in a moment, just for a split second, where the sex is going hot, heavy and good and… out of nowhere something hits me – an impression or feeling and I’m not sure which – that translates to me, “What are you doing?” Then the icky feeling kinda runs its fingers over me and sometimes it’s enough to make me stop what I’m doing for a moment, blink, shake my head, maybe even shrug – and go right back to what I was doing. I know that inside my head, I’ve put it up on the shelf for later examination… if I remember to because having that release tends to give me temporary amnesia, if you know what I mean.

      It doesn’t happen all the time; it’s maybe happened, oh, 10 times that I can clearly remember and keep in mind that I’ve been sexually active since I was 8 so I’ve been doing this for quite a while longer than most folks. That it happened twice with my own wife really baffled the hell out of me and invalidated my earlier thoughts about this, like no attachment or investment in the person – that sort of thing. For the longest time, I thought it was just me, some quirk in my makeup – but, as I’ve said, others have mentioned this as well as my wife on occasion. Some weird-assed… something that pops up when there’s actually nothing wrong going on in that I’m doing exactly what I wanted to do; I have a iron-clad rule to never make love when I don’t feel like it for some reason. So, you see the intrigue in this. Ask me if I wanna fuck… and I will actually stop and think about it – checking with the emotions; do I feel horny? Feel like being bothered? Something not feeling right in mind or body? Got nothing better to do right now? Sure, let’s do this.

      Yeah, I’m fairly easy… but I digress. This self-check actually happens a lot faster and is more complicated. I first thought that maybe this popped up because I really wasn’t into the sex, you know, not really motivated but, um, that’s never been me – I’m pretty good at hyping myself up in a hurry if sex is on the menu – provided I pass the self-check; if I don’t, no sex – keeps me out of trouble.

      Okay, intimacy does, in fact, have several levels and there are no words for some of them that I’m aware of. Like, I know when, say, I’m going down on a guy, I’m being intimate with him and I’m even aware of a quirk; I’m not as much into him as I am his dick – this comes across to me as “focus” but it’s not like I’m really not thinking about what and how he’s feeling because I’m “in touch” with how he feels – again, don’t ask me why. I know I don’t have to be head over heels about a guy to blow him – my mind doesn’t work like that even though I am bisexual; if I want to and he does, it’s on and we both know emotional content other than lust has nothing to do with it – it’s scratching an itch for us. I’ve had that… whatever show up during this and I have no friggin’ idea why – me and my morality don’t get into too many arguments about this and when I’m doing this, it has learned to just shut up and let me handle my business. I could see the moral compass calling a red alert ’cause morality kinda frowns on such things – but that would come across to me as guilt and not “What the fuck are you doing?” or “Why are we doing this?”

      I just don’t know – but, yeah, it’s a bitch trying to figure out – and maybe I really don’t need to but it’s been fun writing about it and discussing it with you and Mystery, which is the real fun!

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  4. Lafemmeroar

    15 November 2011 at 00:20

    You touch on the word “morality” more than once in your comments and in the post. I don’t do casual sex and even when the relationship wasn’t serious, it was an exclusive thing (at least from my understanding and what said partner and I have discussed). It’s not a moral issue, it’s just how I am. To me (and even though I talk about it anonymously–ironically for the whole world to read–if they see this comment) sex is like a secret and I can talk it to death, but “one” will never really know my secret unless he and I “get together.” And I am a private person; hence, my anonymity and my “ruminations” about diving into sex with a partner. I don’t think “morality frowns on such things,” as you said; it’s the morality of certain societies that frowns on such things. I don’t think you have any issues about your sexuality; so, the angst is coming from where? I really want to get into this with you as it falls in alignment with a character in the novel I’m working on.

    Anyway, When you ask: “What the fuck are you doing?” or “Why are we doing this?” Aren’t you doing it because it feels good? So my question is what doesn’t feel good after? Is it a slight level of disgust toward the partner after the orgasm? Is it a form of alienation? Is it an uncanny feeling? Is it the sudden physical detachment that now meets with a certain spiritual and emotion detachment you had for the person prior to the act? I think that even when one isn’t in the mood one always wants to have sex for the “end result.” Obstacles get in the way: lack of a partner, exhaustion, I’d say anger, but angry sex is kinda hot lolol …

    Now, I”m going back to the intimacy. I’m thinking that in this discourse we probably really need to define what intimacy is. Physical closeness is not intimate. Hell even when I was in a relationship sometimes sex was just sex–it wasn’t necessarily an expression of love–it was something I did with someone I liked (even when I was mad at him) and yeah, trusted. To me it’s easier to bump uglies with someone I know well than someone I don’t know at all. You mentioned that you felt this angst once with your wife what was the state of your relationship at the time?

    OMG, this has got to be the longest comment I’ve made … I try to keep my comments short and sweet sometimes, but this topic is so juicy that I need to milk it for everything it’s got. The ball is on your court now. Awaiting your response. You can’t leave me hanging. 🙂

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    • kdaddy23

      15 November 2011 at 02:01

      Oh, but it is a moral issue – you just think it’s your own idea, sweetie; you behave in this like most people do – do it privately and only with someone you’re with. Nope, I have no issues with my sexuality and I wouldn’t exactly call it angst. And, nope, it’s not about it not feeling good either unless my partner said or did something to piss me off – but I know my feelings in this situation so no, that’s not it. By the way, the two questions are the easiest way for me to put into words what I might feel in that moment – because I do know what I’m doing and why I’m doing it.

      Is it uncanny? No, not in that sense – just that it’s been known to show up at times. Is it something spiritual or some sort of detachment? I doubt it. As best as I can describe it, it’s like being tapped on the shoulder when you’re busy doing something and asks, “Why are we doing this?” when, duh, it’s kinda obvious why we are – go away and let me finish! It’s not something that dwells on my mind – although others have said it can for them – depends.

      My relationship with my wife was fine – which is what made this even more mysterious. And if you think physical closeness isn’t intimacy, guess again – it really is even if you’re not aware of it – it’s the reason why some folks get pissy about people stepping into their personal space unwelcomed – it implies an intimacy. Our culture mandates that we only have sex with people we have feelings for – and lust doesn’t count and we’re suppose to ignore that so this is the generally accepted definition of intimacy… and it’s not entirely accurate. Let me ask you something – you have the right to refuse to answer: When someone reaches for your breasts, do you look down at their hand? If you do – and you’re probably not even aware that you’re doing it – it’s because that particular move is an intimate one and touching is an intimate act, even when you’re touching yourself. Now, intimacy and sex do go hand in hand – but they aren’t even the same things. Like right now: I’m being intimate with you by having this conversation – and I’m no where near you. We’re talking sex – this, too, is intimate even though it’s in a general, non-sexual way. Do you know why some people will not look you in the eyes? It’s not rudeness – it’s intimate and it makes people feel uncomfortable.

      In fact, you cannot have sex without being intimate, can you? What makes it “different” is how you, as an individual, think about sex – and you think like most people do – morally, for the most part and this is proven by your statement that you don’t do casual sex. So how do you define intimacy? I say it’s impossible to have sex with someone without being intimate with them… but it’s how you feel about the person that makes a difference, huh? If you care for them, it’s on; don’t care, eh, you’re passing on it – and we’re taught to do this – or at least I was; one of the things my parents told me about sex is to never have sex unless you love the person you’re doing it with or have other deep feelings – sound familiar? They were right… and about as wrong as they could be because you don’t have to have any “feelings” to have sex with someone – you just have to want to do it and get someone to say yes. Even in this you have feelings – it’s called lust but, ah, remember, we’re supposed to ignore this and save it for the guy/gal we have real feelings for… like lust isn’t a real feeling – but that’s morality talking, sweetie – that one man, one woman thing and the one situation “intimacy” is supposed to be reserved for and at no other time than that.

      But I know I don’t have any moral conflicts; if I did, I wouldn’t – couldn’t – be bisexual, let alone some of the other shit I’ve done to date. So, as far as I know, when I’m throwing down – and absent anything my partner might do to upset me – there’s no reason for me to be wondering why I’m doing something because as far as I’m concerned, I’m not doing anything wrong – but that’s my conscious mind being in control and if this is some subconscious thing, well, I have no idea what’s going on in there; if I did, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And, yeah, when I do do something wrong, I feel guilty as hell and sometimes before, during and after the fact.

      You can choose to keep your comments short – but in here, there are no limits so do what you gotta do and say what you gotta say. I’m retired and this is all I do all day so you wanna go long, go ahead – I have the time to digest it all.

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  5. Lafemmeroar

    15 November 2011 at 03:03

    I’m going to address your reply paragraph by paragraph:

    P1: Not sure what you mean by “you just think it’s your own idea” hell of course it’s my idea. I don’t think someone who sleeps around is bad; it’s not my thing because frankly the thought of someone I don’t know touching me is irritating and while I can be attracted to someone at first sight, one needs to “fuck my mind” before I can really muster the desire to bump uglies with them.

    P2: Okay. no comment. It is what it is for you.

    P3: Here is where we get into the slippery slope of semantics when it comes to the word intimacy. If I’m standing close to a chick in a crowded elevator and we’re packed like freakin’ sardines, that’s physical closeness, but that is not what I would call intimate. I don’t need to guess again on that. I would get pissy if someone invaded my physical space because that can be construed as an aggressive act. THERE IS NOTHING INTIMATE ABOUT AN AGGRESSIVE ACT. A rapist is close to his victim, and they are physically “connected” but there is NOTHING INTIMATE about their physical juxtaposition.

    I’m not going to argue with you over lust–it can count–it can be intimate–it depends because there are varying levels of lust and there are intersecting emotions that goes on in that realm as well. When you made the hand to the breast reference and you say that I’m not aware that I look at the hand gesturing for my high beams lol–well if the gesture is welcomed, then it is an intimate act, and in that context my eyes are probably closed in anticipation; but if it’s someone copping a feel, then that’s intrusion and there is nothing intimate about that. Touching, depending on the context can either be intimate or not. And even though I’ve never had a one night stand, sex with someone you love doesn’t really have to be intimate–it can just be an act of pleasure–but I’m not always thinking I love this man inside me.

    P4: The answer to your first question in this paragraph is: physical closeness does not necessarily equate intimacy. When you say I think like most people do “morally” I said in previous comments that sex isn’t a moral issue it’s an issue of letting someone in on “my secret.” If I were to ever digress on my MO it would be a switch, but I wouldn’t think of myself as being immoral for changing. And sweetie lust is a real feeling I never said it wasn’t. I never said sex was reserved for the one.In fact I’ve had numerous “the ones” in my life.

    P5: This is an interesting statement: “But I know I don’t have any moral conflicts; if I did, I wouldn’t – couldn’t – be bisexual, let alone some of the other shit I’ve done to date.” So are you saying that if you did have moral conflicts you would have a problem with your bisexuality? From my perspective this connotes that there is something bad in bisexuality. If your conscious mind does not think so, then it’s worth exploring the inner workings of your subconscious as you reference in P4 about “one of the things my parents told me about sex is to never have sex unless you love the person you’re doing it with or have other deep feelings – sound familiar?” The truth is my parents never had that “talk with me.” Albeit, romance movies, which I loved as a teen were plagued with that idea. Although my mom once told me when I was about 13 that my body was a temple and when I told her that temples have lots of worshippers she almost got the scissors and threatened to cut all of my hair off. She didn’t of course 🙂 My parents weren’t what I would call conservative, but they weren’t free thinkers either. (I guess that’s a topic for another blog lol.)

    I think this is one of the most riveting exchanges I’ve had here on WP and the word count alone in my comments is probably staggering and I could have used this time to work and to revise my novel, but my novel is another story. I’ve loved this and the only thing I don’t appreciate is how you lump me in with the “rest” in terms of my sexual thinking. I don’t think that’s accurate, but I guess it is your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Wish I have more time. Now I’m going to proof some work, do my thing for that blasted NANOWRIMO thing that I’ve joined because I’m procrastinating the edits on my novel. I bid you good night and look forward to your response … if you care to that is.

    This has been truly orgasmic! 🙂

    Laters,
    Lafemme

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    • kdaddy23

      15 November 2011 at 03:37

      I was gonna do that writing thing but changed my mind at the last minute. The nice thing about these discourses is that we can be general and, if necessary, agree to disagree, no harm, no foul. The one thing I’ll say that since we weren’t talking about an aggressive act, I didn’t speak to it and, yes, I know that’s very different – but we perceive it as an aggressive act and because of the implied intimacy in the action; like I said, it’s why we get so pissy when someone touches us in any way and without our permission. In fact, this was something we experimented with in my psychology class back in my college days and, wow, talk about explosive!

      I wasn’t lumping you in and I should have been clearer and said you – but not specifically; that way you don’t feel picked on and, besides, I don’t know you like that, do I? And, no, I didn’t expect you to agree with me on anything I said; I did ask for your definitions and stuff and you were kind enough to share them with me.

      How does one explore their subconscious without being hypnotized and “disconnected’ from your conscious mind? I can, of course, search my feelings… but my subconscious? Oh, I know it’s there, lurking like a thief in the night when I’m awake and whispering in the background – and then running wild when I’m asleep and doing who knows what other than making me dream. And, really, it’s not like my figuring this out is a life and death matter for me; if I don’t, I don’t – I just find it damned curious – I just am unable to identify it, let alone explain it.

      Yep, if I had moral conflicts, I couldn’t be bisexual – because our morality, back by our various religions – says I’m not supposed to be and if I believed this – and I really don’t – then, yeah, I couldn’t be bi. The fact that I am tells you what I think about the “moral issues” around having some kind of sex with a man. My conscious mind is just fine and dandy with my sexuality and has been for quite some time. It’s not as if I’m not aware of morality – I am; there are just parts of it I think are pure bullshit and designed to exert control over us and I ain’t trying to hear it.

      I do very much appreciate you taking the time to discuss and debate this and other things; haven’t had this much fun in a while.

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      • Lafemmeroar

        15 November 2011 at 03:54

        Dude! I’m so away past my bedtime … but discussions like this don’t come too often so let me just say that it’s been sooo fun. As you know, I like to keep things light on my blog. But about the subconscious this discussion got me thinking about why I write what I write on my blog. Sure everything is a joke and not serious, but why do I talk about schlong’s so much in my posts? Is it because I think they’re funny? Is it because I think they’re easy to make fun of? Is it because I’m angry towards men? Could it be because I wished I had one? I guess that’s an “issue I’ll never figure out. Who knows, but whatever my issues are about genitalia I think I’m making it work for me.

        It’s a touchy subject when the discussion is about morality as it’s such a nebulous subject. I mean I don’t know if I’m a relativist or a universalist … my suspicion is that I’m somewhere in between. 🙂

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 04:13

        Personally – and since you mentioned it – I thought it was because you really do like them – and don’t we pick on the things/people we like? Last thing on morality – I hope. We all know what the deal is with this but what we do is kinda revise it here and there to suit our purposes – helps with that whole self-justification thing we do. So… sex and things sexual; we’re not supposed to talk about it to anyone – and that includes the person you’re sleeping with. You’re only supposed to do it in a committed relationship and if your married, that’s “perfect” because it fits the one man, one woman deal and if you’re not in a relationship that has meaning, keep it in your pants and keep your legs closed and, oh, yeah, you gotta be and remain heterosexual.

        This is what we’re taught… then we find out that, um, that’s not exactly the truth or reality as we understand it. Doesn’t mean morality shouldn’t exist – I’d hate to think what life would be like without it – we either accept the edicts of morality – with a couple of wrinkles here and there – or we reject it wholesale. Me, well, I admit that I’ve kept some of morality – and have thrown a lot of it away because, to me, it doesn’t make sense or I feel it’s designed to control me in a way I choose not to be controlled – like that heterosexual thing.

        Have a good night; sorry to have kept you up so late – and I’ll be here, waiting and thinking of more stuff to write…

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  6. mysterycoach

    15 November 2011 at 03:21

    I was reading and you guys continue on but I thought about the comment where I believe Kdaddy said how looking into someone eyes is a form of intimacy. And this is true… Have you two ever realized that it’s easier to have sex with a person than to tell them the most intimate of secrets about yourself or your life or open up to them on a personal level?

    We open up to others by degrees. At least this has been my experience at times, which I think is wise because you never know who we’re talking to or what they’re agenda is until we have an idea about who they really are.

    Anyway, what’s so interesting to me is that I’ve seen people look away when you look them in the eyes at times. Try it, it’s very interesting to see how people shift, they make it seem like they’re not really doing it on purpose but they look away. I’ve done that myself now and then I catch it.

    Very interesting stuff what we personally view as intimate, how it all evolves, how we’re preconditioned to all of these things even intimacy (for all it’s levels) by LIFE and the people around us. Isn’t it?

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    • Lafemmeroar

      15 November 2011 at 03:25

      The best liars can look into someone’s eyes and lie like a “Pinocchio.” I do think it’s fascinating … I love the fact that we can be looking at the same “mountain” and see it from different “perspectives.”

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      • mysterycoach

        15 November 2011 at 03:36

        The best liars are those who make you doubt yourself and what you feel, yet that discomfort still lingers in our body because we know they’re full of it. Whether they’re looking you in the face, writing, talking, running along that fine line of what you think and what they want you to think and/or believe. Little cameleons that they are. Blegh! 🙂

        Perspectives are always a good thing, even when we disagree. In the middle some where, it seems at times, lies the truth but the truth is highly individualized and I guess we remember that it’s our truth, which can be subject to change as we grow as an individual.

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 03:42

        They say the truth is what it is… but it’s really a matter of perspective based on how we perceive our individual environments and based on our experiences in life to date. Thus, what was once the truth at some time in the past could be anything other than that today and the reverse can be true as well; what we perceive as untruth today could be the truth tomorrow… since you went all philosophical on me.

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 03:45

        Indeed, it is quite fascinating, ain’t it? You say “toe-may-toe” I say “toe-mah-toe” and we’re both talking about the same thing: The fruit people mistake for a veggie. But, that’s what makes these discussion such a joy because we can come at them from different directions and still come away with some understanding – even if we agree to disagree on stuff. This, my friends, is communication at its best!

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      • mysterycoach

        15 November 2011 at 04:29

        Go all philosophical all you want. I don’t mind at all, my brain likes it 🙂 LOL … That’s right, agree to disagree is fine. I hate nothing more than when an individual walks that tight rope trying to convince me they’re this great person and they’re not. They have an agenda and they lack integrity and conviction… there’s something missing. You can feel it… you don’t come across this way, which is why I don’t mind having this banter. Hell, I would have this banter with anyone however good communication requires give and take and … you know, it’s not a bad thing to give and take as long as it’s a healthy exchange.

        When it turns into that nonsense of I’m going to convince you (not that I’ve ever felt that way throughout our discussions) of how I think and it’s best? Oh… no… BIG red flag. It’s like, why do I need to think the way other people do ? I’m not talking… oh, you know what I’m saying. 🙂

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 15:27

        I do have an agenda – but it’s to share what I’ve learned and to learn what I don’t know – and having conversations like the one me, you, and Lafemme just had goes a long way to meeting that agenda! I know what I don’t know; hell, I can even admit that when I speak to something, I could be dead wrong about it. Now, convincing… that gets interesting. If I’m trying to convince anyone of anything, it’s that I know what I’m talking about – but not to the point where I’m being pushy or overly arrogant about it; it’s just a thing that I know what I know, that’s all. It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing about stuff – it’s the exchange of information, that intelligent discourse, that matters the most.

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    • kdaddy23

      15 November 2011 at 04:01

      Yep, I sure have noticed that, Mystery – and it fascinates me to no end. Being all up close and personal with your body is one thing; getting all up close and personal with your mind? Oh, hell no! To be inside someone’s head like that is the ultimate act of intimacy, would you agree? That’s what I like about talking to my baby; those boundaries aren’t there and we often spend time rooting around inside each other’s head and with the knowledge that, yeah, you might not like what you find in there – but this is me (or her) and it creates a deeper – wait for it – intimacy between us.

      I once got called on the carpet at work because when I talk to people, I look them in the eye… because it’s polite. Well, now, this one woman actually filed a complaint against me with my managers… and can you imagine the look on my face when they told me why I was there? Needless to say, I went totally ghetto on them, one of those rare moments when I get really insulted. I asked them – and her since she was there, what I was supposed to do? I could understand if I was staring at her chest – something most men tend to do, by the way – but I was doing what I taught to do; maintain eye contact. She interpreted it as a sexual thing because I was “staring intently” at her. Say what? Oh, I went off in there and literally told her that I thought she was as sexually interesting as a sponge and I wouldn’t lower my standard to stoop that low to imply anything sexual toward her. If she wasn’t offended before, by God, she was when I got done.

      And all because I made eye contact with her when we were talking. But, you know what? I did notice when we were talking, she was sexually excited; her pupils were quite dilated, nostrils flaring, I could even smell her excitement – and if she got any closer to me, she would have been in my suit with me. And, yeah, I notice such things… because I was trained to notice them. But I got yelled at? Ah, but I had to promise my bosses that I wouldn’t look any one in the eye and to break contact frequently when speaking to someone; I told them to kiss my black ass and walked out – and never heard about this again. The nerve of some people, huh?

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      • mysterycoach

        15 November 2011 at 04:33

        Yes. I would agree that getting all up in someone’s head is the highest form of intimacy on earth. Makes sex much better too 🙂 That’s nice that you and your wife have such open communication like you do. This is what I would like in my next relationship. I’m not settling for less … it’s juuuust not happening.

        As for your situation at work… did you know I laugh at perhaps the wrong time? Wait for it… ready?

        ROFLMAO!!!!! HAHAHAHA! You pegged this just right I’m sure. I love it ! I mean … hahahaha! Now, for fun, can you just imagine what was going on in her head? LOL !!! Oh hell no! must be like a bee hive in there! LOL!

        I say it all the time, I’ll keep my issues and things that are whirling around in mine, over anyone elses. At least I know when I’m full of shit.

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 14:13

        It wasn’t funny when I was hearing it, trust me! Our company had just instituted a diversity program and it really put everyone on edge where sexual harassment was concerned and to the point where even looking at someone walking by you could be considered harassment if you looked just a bit too long. As it happened, me and a few other employees were selected to be a part of a diversity video and discuss the new policy and how it might – or had – affected us… and I stole the show relating this incident. One woman participating said she’d rather have me looking her in the eyes than staring at her chest (not that she had much of one but I was feeling her) and that it’s just being polite and showing we’re paying attention… which is exactly what I’d been taught about manners.

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 14:18

        In my college psych class, we were discussing intimacy and we all pretty much had the same concept of it… until our professor pointed out some stuff to us, which led to the experiment that jumped off – and it changed my perception of intimacy forever. Not that all intimate things lead to sex, mind you, but just simple day to day things and actions that qualify, technically, as being intimate – which is just another way to describe closeness or something personal. We got an excellent chance to see how our own minds worked about this and, like I said, it was explosive.

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      • mysterycoach

        15 November 2011 at 14:18

        I like the way you handled it and the way you told it was funny. So I’m clear …. I wasn’t laughing “at” you, but at the stupidity of the position you were put in by this woman. What amazes me is how people take things and blow them up and it’s like … What are you talking about? Seriously?

        I get this look on my face in those instances and I am truly befuddled. Takes all kinds KDaddy all kinds. Yet, you know? Without them what would we have to talk about ? LOL 🙂

        I agree, eye contact is very important in communication. I shows we’re paying attention, we have interests among other things. You know what is interesting is how difficult it can be to actually look someone in the eye when we feel vulnerable or are worried about what we’re saying. I’ve experienced that one myself. Both from myself and from the other person… Eyes, I’ve always said, are the mirrors to the soul.

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      • mysterycoach

        15 November 2011 at 14:28

        Sounds like class I would have enjoyed thoroughly 🙂 Maybe one day, when you have time you can share some of it . I would love to hear it.

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 14:36

        My major was computer science and at first, I didn’t know why I had to take a whole semester of psychology – but I’m glad I did! Our professor made it fun and I really did learn a whole lot about myself and people!

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      • mysterycoach

        15 November 2011 at 16:37

        I think psychology is something we need to read and various forms of it too, as well as communication skills which are even more important in any venue. When I stopped reading up on psychology for the past 3/4 years I slowly went backwards mentally and then emotionally as well. I had no tools, nothing to pull from and my thinking got cloudy. The more I began reading again, the better I’ve been feeling. So, I love it … all of it. It to me should be necessary for everyone on the planet. Course, if they have illusions of grandure thaaaat’s a problem. 🙂

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  7. mysterycoach

    15 November 2011 at 04:36

    Wait… hold on… still laughing… HAHAHAHAHA!!!! That poor woman! LOL !!!! hahaha! Holy crap… priceless, absolutely priceless story.

    See? Eye contact … people are not used to that. Yup… don’t I know it. And for good measure, the player uses this tactic too … yup. Well, it’s one of the things they use. You can flip that back on them but I prefer to just get rid of one once I’ve identified them for who they are.

    hahahaha! DON’T MAKE EYE CONTACT YOU HEATHEN! 🙂 (that’s a joke … LOL ) hahaha! I have to take a nap, I gotup too early.

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    • mysterycoach

      15 November 2011 at 08:10

      I’m at work having my nice breakfast sandwich so I came on here to scroll through comments… got to this one and I thought…

      Now KDaddy? DON’T LOOK AT ME ! (snicker… giggle… LOL!) OMG this is priceless. I wish I could have seen that discussion. That would have been a hoot. aaagh… and there you go, one of my laughs for the day! Thank you kind sir.

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      • kdaddy23

        15 November 2011 at 14:31

        To say I was livid doesn’t even come close and I’d never been so insulted before in my life! I know I wasn’t thinking about her “like that;” my brain had already sized her up and, pardon me, deemed her an unlikely candidate to be fucked – that and when I’m at work, I strove to be a consummate professional and especially with people I didn’t know or work closely with. I ripped her and my bosses new assholes in that office. But it gets better; several months later, we had to take some stupid class and I got bored for three days. The day after the class was over, I get called in again and there’s the class’s instructor with my bosses – only this time, the complaint was about my intimidating presence… and I went off again.

        First thing I said was, “What? Are you fucking telling me that I have to stop being me?” They really tried to tell me that I needed to stop doing something I’m not even aware that I’m doing – unless I’m deliberately trying to intimidate someone. It was a joke and I told all of them that if being in my presence intimidates them, that’s not my problem and more so if I’m not trying to fuck with them – and I’m not. They were really, seriously, gonna write me up because being around me made them nervous – are you fucking kidding me?

        My immediate supervisor, who was always on my side said to me later, “You’re an alpha male, you know, and people can sense that and, well, it’ll have two effects on them; they’ll either bask in your presence or be disturbed by it.” Okay, I could get my head around that although I didn’t necessarily agree with the whole alpha male thing. But, if this is so, um, how do you turn it off? It was insane…

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  8. mysterycoach

    15 November 2011 at 16:26

    Damn. That’s not right either. Did you know that people are intimidated by silence? I find it interesting that people have told me that I can come across as intimidating without even trying to. Goes to, I think walk and how we carry ourselves and of course what we say, when, how, in what venue… etc., etc., tone of voice is a killer too.

    You don’t turn it off if that’s the case. Really we can’t change other people’s perceptions so I mean, I don’t know how you come across in real life or how you sound or your body language but online you’re pretty communicative. I do like that you let them have it and still had a job when you were done. Goes to sticking up for yourself and that’s cool. As a single parent I’ve had to temper down at times certain things because I didn’t want to get fired and then carry around a bad reputation. Here though, interestingly enough, I’ve had a few fights with the old self imposed office manager and I’m still here.

    I hear you… I hear you. It is offensive to be accused of something you wouldn’t do and didn’t do. I know I hear you!

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    • kdaddy23

      15 November 2011 at 18:08

      People just amaze me. Psychology kinda lets you know that things aren’t always what they seem to be and that which lies beneath is really what’s going on. Perception of reality and other such things is, I think, important to be aware of and, sometimes, it seems to me that we don’t pay enough attention to ourselves; if we ain’t broken, we ain’t fixin’ anything. I find that it fits in nicely with my curiosity and my belief that if I can understand why something works the way it does, well, there you go… and the great experiment for me is to figure out why people do the things we do and, um, especially where sex, sexuality, and relationships are concerned.

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      • mysterycoach

        16 November 2011 at 06:16

        What lies beneath is really what’s going on. That’s always. And I note too that often times people spew out things without thinking just to blend without rocking the boat too. I used to make offhanded comments too until I realized that it wasn’t really what “I thought” at all on any given topic because that’s what people do. Make a comment, just to blend and give up true thoughts, not always “sometimes” but even sometimes starts to become a ridiculous proposition. I find too, sometimes people just go on heresay and don’t do any of the work to find the truth. Take the conscentual sex topic. I was googling that stuff after you said it to educate myself. Some others would just take anything someone said and take it as a truth and then go spreading that around. Thereby allowing themselves to remain uneducated about any given topic. Just because someone of authority “said so” or they knew someone… and they go on to say “did you know this about that!?”

        And they didn’t even do their homework, they’re walking around spreading half truths, and as to interpersonal things they’re walking around talking about things or gossiping without any facts but pure speculations. That’s what I’m talking about NO facts. I do know we can google anything and come up with a slew of diverse facts but that’s all about educating ourselves and finding our own truths to the matter. Usually within all those facts, is a common denominator that tie all these facts up as truth. It’s early, did I say this in a way where I’m being clear? 🙂

        We are not taught initially to pay attention to ourselves up until, as is my humble opinion, something strikes a nerve or we’re in a situation where we want to fix something but that usually starts out as we’re having trouble with someone or something else and we go out and fix the other person instead of the root cause. WHICH IS ALWAYS US… (not yelling, just making a point…)

        As for sexuality, sex etc., this is a highly broad topic which goes to environment, religion, what they were taught or not taught, guilt, all kinds of things that add to the mix. Fear of intimacy, fears of inadequacy … fears of not being loved if they don’t do it, I could go on forever on this topic… Oh and not my favorite but the one I hear the most is how we’re obligated through any means to have to have sex. How women, and not all people think along this vein but how it’s a womans obligation to have sex? Healthy requires no obligation. Healthy sexual relationships are built on mutuality, respect and wanting to be with our partner. Not having sex with them solely becuase it’s their job or duty… I mean can you imagine having sex with a woman who is doing it out of obligation? That’s a much different sexual experience than doing it because it’s equally as pleasurable to them as it is to their partner.

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      • kdaddy23

        16 November 2011 at 12:25

        Well, for the first part, it’s about believability and trust as far as the source of the information is concerned; and there’s a reason they say to believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. Next, we do have a habit of saying, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fuck with it!” and always tend to assume that if there is a problem, well, it ain’t us – it’s the other person – but never take into consideration that the other person may have said or done a thing… because of something we said or did, didn’t say, or didn’t do or, we provoked the action and then categorically deny that we did when we get busted for it.

        I was reading your last paragraph and my immediate thought was to keep you away from my blogging buddy John on that obligation thing; me and him have gone round and round on this one quite a few times! But, okay, ah, man, see, that whole monogamy and let’s get married thing comes with a whole bunch of assumptions, like, it’s me and you and as my wife, you have a “duty” to see to my sexual needs, just as I have that same duty to see to yours and, indeed, the Old Testament does speak to this… but somewhere along the line, it got misinterpreted from “y’all should do the nasty as much as possible and have babies” to “you have to do it, no questions asked, no excuses tolerated.” I’m not exactly sure at what point in history women started to get pissed off about this but as they became more empowered, instead of the sex being mandatory, they realized that, hey, this is my body and if I don’t wanna give it to you, I don’t have to. Now it’s a “battle” between what the bible says about “go ye forth” and what the law says about all of this – and this is where it gets interesting. As it is, a wife is expected to provide succor to her husband (and vice versa)… but she also has the right to say no (as does he) and, of course, if he forces the issue, he’s looking at a possible marital rape charge, as evidenced in some landmark cases that have taken place about this. And, yeah, we had a case here in my home state where a wife got arrested for raping her husband.

        There is nothing worse than having sex with someone who’s doing it out of obligation or duty and, personally, I’d rather not be bothered with that; let me know when you feel like doing it, okay? I’ll be in the bathroom going through several rolls of toilet paper…

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  9. mysterycoach

    16 November 2011 at 19:55

    Sure, sure it’s never us with the problem is it? We are always the common denominator in all our relationships. I have learned this lesson over and over again in life. There are plenty of people who are provoking especially when something strikes a nerve for us and then it’s up to us as to how we deal with it, which brings us “right back to us being the common denominator”. No one says, however, that we have tolerate bad behaviors at any time. Which is still about us and setting the appropriate boundaries with someone who may violate something that’s important to us. We teach others how to treat us all day long. We are personally accountable for our actions at all times, what we do or the lack thereof. It’s always about us HOWEVER I’m never saying that others are not accountable for their actions. I am saying that it comes full circle at all times within relationships. And this is all relationships. Personal, friends, peers, bosses, blogger people, etc.,

    If we are part of the problem, and most don’t see it this way, they’re not a part of any problem. Yet they are simply because they’re not seeing the problem and sometimes it’s because they haven’t had that wake up call yet that they’re part of the problem.

    If we were to remove all of the preconditioned concepts as to sex within a marriage. We would be left with something very simple. I love my husband and/or wife and I respect that we have different needs at different times and when we respect one another, most would probably be having sex more often than they do now.

    No, obligatory sex is not healthy within a relationship. At some point, it would lead to the conversation you and I were having the other day where you think some where in there that, you don’t really want to be doing it. And for a person to oblige another into servicing them in this way, it’s not going to be enjoyable for the person who feels like they have to. Because they won’t really be into it as much and if the person who felt they were entitled to it enjoyed it, at some point you’d have to think… they’re missing the true value of this type of intimacy between two people. Doesn’t sound very loving at all to me. Sounds selfish and self serving. Sex is supposed to be something where you and a partner are so comfortable with one another all across the board that you truly enjoy being with one another and therein lies the “draw” as to what would make a woman, even when she’s tired of taking care of the kids, running around, doing errands, this, that and the other thing be able to go home, relax with her honey and want to be with him. Because he’s there for her… emotionally and mentally as well. It takes effort and communcation, definitely however it’s worth the effort.

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    • kdaddy23

      16 November 2011 at 20:46

      Well, I know that (re obligatory sex) but I’m not sure there are a lot of people who do. I mean, if you feel like it, fine; if not, okay, I’ll wait – gives me a good reason to lay into that stuff good and hard! Besides, I have two hands… oh, yeah, I’m bisexual, too! Working backward through your nice comments, I found the easiest way to make getting laid in the relationship is to remove all the dumb shit that exists about it; again, if you feel like it, babe, fine; if not… To the person “demanding” the sex, yeah, it is self-serving and selfish ’cause it’s just about what they want and the other person’s just supposed to give it up without any undue hesitation. And, I can’t think of a faster way to get a partner to decide to have an affair than this insane behavior.

      One day, my ex was bummed out, I picked up on it – that vibe thing you were talking about on your blog – and pulled out of her what was wrong and as I listened, I thought, “Hey, this might be my fault she’s feeling like this…” Turns out it was – nothing major – but it taught me that in these things, I shouldn’t just automatically figure it’s them with the problem until I’m sure I’m not the one who caused them to have it in the first place. It puts you on guard to do your best to be mindful of the way you behave toward others… but not a lot of people are gonna be bothered with being this nice because, basically, if there’s a problem, you’re the one who has it, not me.

      One of my favorite sayings: If you’re not going to be part of the solution, stop being part of the problem.

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      • mysterycoach

        17 November 2011 at 11:02

        Sure, I know what you mean about removing the dumb shit. It’s not only engaging one person or the other. I mean, these things can be talked about between couples. I know if I can’t find a way to say it I’ll get a book that says it way better than I can and show a person or heh, I’ll google it… I figure your never too old to learn how to express yourself better. I know a woman who said that the man should “know” what she likes and I thought that was unfair. Some men are just not that aware and/or talented in bed. And this goes both ways, lots of women aren’t aware of things either. I’m sure at some point I’ll learn a new trick or two myself.

        Aw, this is nice that you guys sat down and had a conversation. This goes back to the cheating post you made a while ago too where things are internal in a relationship and it takes two people, paying attention, to work things out and move forward and it’s nice that you and your wife have this type of communcication between the two of you.

        My old boss years ago used to say something similar to me/us. “Don’t come to me with a problem, come to me with solutions”. We’re all involved within a relationship, it cant be one over powering another, controlling another and/or whatever it takes two people at all times.

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      • kdaddy23

        17 November 2011 at 16:16

        I love how this conversation went from one thing to something else! A lot of this is about communication and doing it effectively but it’s also being able to switch back and forth between being subjective and objective and, all too often, we’re either unwilling or unable to just take a step away from the situation and look at it from different perspectives. We make getting laid harder than it needs to be; we get all hung up on quality and quantity and instead of trying to make a so-so lover better, we’d rather dispose of them and go in search of someone who can fuck us better which, at times, seems to be more important than being with someone who will treat us better, in that sense. I know women who have thrown good men away just because their cock is only 6″ long and men have thrown good women away because she might have a reason to not suck him off or some other sexual “issue” that’s not to his liking; that she’s outstanding in all other areas somehow doesn’t seem to carry any weight.

        For your boss, I know how I’d respond to him saying that: If I can’t come to you with a problem, what are you getting paid for? Don’t think he’d like me too much…

        The truth, as I understand it, about relationships is that despite the ideal ways of having one, it’s about control – what you want versus what I want. It’s about dominance because, invariably, someone has to be “in charge” of the relationship instead of dividing that responsibility as evenly as possible… and that’s not an easy thing to do because it requires a couple to think “us” and not “me” so much. In a way, it all becomes a circular argument if a couple can’t get themselves on an even keel.

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  10. mysterycoach

    17 November 2011 at 19:20

    I know! This is FUN ! Things are highly intermingled that’s why it’s so easy to start identifying how they all begin to tie in together and you seen to love to talk and share, do I, so that’s pretty cool.

    You know … I have had the experience of a guy who was not good in bed, I mean there were other variables? At the same time, there was just something missing. I would find it difficult to believe that this particular person would get any better at it EVER. Blegh… haha! On the other hand, yes, I can agree that people can toss a perfectly good person to the curb for certain things when there’s things that can be shifted or worked out. Sex is really important in a relationship though and if that’s not there and all you see yourself doing with this person is talking because you’d “rather” talk then have sex? ooooh… that’s not good. I can recall dating a person who the mere thought of doing anything at all with them further, just was like, unthinkable. Totally needs to be some compatibility.

    LOL My boss was TOUGH back then. But! He worked the files RIGHT better than other attorneys I’ve worked for. His meaning, which I need to include was to dig and learn and do the right things with the files. Not run around looking for him to fix everything. IF I needed him, he was there to answer my questions. I thought I blew a statute one time and I was scared to DEATH… LOL 🙂 Holy crap! He came in the law library, I was WHITE and he was like what’s the matter? I explained it and as it turned out, the carrier was messing with me and I WON! wooo hooo! 🙂 So, ya, this required some clarification on my part. He was tough though and while I didn’t respect it then, I respect it now.

    Well… each couple, I think, defines their relationships and it’s based on their past up through to the present. Preconditioned responses, desires, dreams, roles they’ll play within the relationship… etc., No it’s not easy to do and it totally requires massive communication. I agree with you. It’s one of the reasons I am annoyed when I reach out to people and they basically slap my hand away. It’s like… You’re stupid right? Here I am, making an extended effort and it’s not a short period of time either and … you what? Disrespect me and my feelings by … doing whatever you want and not putting in the same effort and mind you, we all get a little lazy. Complacent and life tosses stuff at us, as you know, that we may not be prepared for. I am a MASSIVE fan of communication and talking … And it can take me a very long time to lose my temper. Especially if I’ve extended myself repeatedly. Once I hit tilt though… oooh boy. I think about the words we chose too and if when we discuss things we’re being completely genuine in how we feel or if we’re afraid to express something for fear of rejection or getting hurt.

    That all plays a part too but it’s like with my boss. Right? He’s a yeller, well he “was” but they were short bursts and he was unapproachable at time. I figured out that If I just waited for him to yell LOL … or get his point across and let him finish, when it was my turn, he’d listen. He just needed to say what he had to and be heard. I can do that… and then, if I wasn’t clear on what he said, I would go in his office and sit and wait, and he was a kitten. So, you watch your partner (any person really) to learn their methods of communication and it’s no small task either. BUT it is worth as long as both parties are heard and you come to a meeting of the minds. That’s when symmetry starts and it’s nice and it’s rocky and it takes time. I think I’ve learned more about relationships at this job I have now, than other times in my life. Because I’m more educated NOW on how to build them. Doesn’t mean a person will walk all over me, it means that I’ve learned some valuable things to enhance MY LIFE through using these tools and in that process, they come with me, it rubs off…. it’s very nice.

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    • kdaddy23

      17 November 2011 at 20:30

      Well, I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself ’cause I am. Okay, you bring up a good point: Define what being good in bed means. I know what it means to me but this becomes an issue when, say, my idea of being good in bed doesn’t match up with your idea of the same thing. Big problem, huh? We come into a relationship at the sex phase with the thought of whether that first time together is going to be good or not; I’m thinking you’d better be good and you’re thinking the same about me… and we aren’t even thinking about the same thing and this is very important: We probably didn’t bother to take the time to figure out what things we could do between the sheets together so that we’d both be good in bed! It’s not as much as what I like or what you like – it’s really a thing of us figuring out what we can do together so that the sex is good for the both of us.

      To that end, our expectations often outreach each other’s abilities and we are so hung up on it being good in a ton of ways that we tend to forget that having sex is supposed to be fun, too, that whole experimenting with each other and taking all the stuff we’ve both learned about sex and combining them in some way that “good” isn’t an issue. At least in my opinion, as long as the dreaded “I ain’t doing that” never takes up residence in your bed, well, why shouldn’t it be good?

      Compatibility? Well, that effective communication thing can play well into determining this… best way to find out is to get naked and give it a shot. We expect a lover to know exactly what to do and all that… and I’ve come to learn that this is a stupid way to be and a great way to set yourself up for sexual failure in the relationship. As I mentioned in another’s blog, “I know how to make love; what I don’t know is how to make love to YOU.” We don’t want to educate each other about this very important fact and since we don’t, it becomes a problem because we’re compatible everywhere else along the line… except in the one way that really matters. That means I tell you a bunch of stuff about me and you tell me a bunch of stuff about you… but we don’t wanna do this too much, do we?

      We do approach relationships based on past experiences and, yep, that comes complete with conditioned responses… and that might be because while we know we’re dealing with a different person… we kinda don’t know that. You can’t forget or ignore that which you have learned – but your next relationship shouldn’t be based upon the failures of the last – that’s self-defeating. Kinda gets into that “leave the past in the past” thing that annoys the shit out me because to understand the person standing before you now, you have to know where they’ve been to get to the here and now – and how that might affect any future we may have. Also gets into that list of “demands” everyone brings to the table along with a bunch of expectations, tons of other shit. While we might sit down and put our heads together about stuff, once we do it, we then fail to leave room for mistakes and growth; once in the relationship, we actually stop working at it and only focus on the day-to-day stuff, thinking that the rest will take care of itself and this, too, is a dumb way to behave.

      Like

       

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