Is this a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Should the folks who aren’t straight look more toward people who are more like them than famous in any way if/when they need guidance, inspiration, stuff like that?
See, famous people are still people so when I hear or read that some celebrity has come out – or someone becomes a celebrity by coming out – I say, okay, that’s nice – glad to see they’re comfortable enough to do this so publicly. Obviously, with a celebrity coming out, it provides a bit more visibility to the sexuality they’re announcing but I keep asking myself whether their coming out is something I should be paying a lot of attention to. I know I probably feel that way because I’ve been out for so long and I’ve yet to see or hear how coming out by a celeb is helping regular folks cope with their sexuality issues; I’m not sure that our media system is all that interested in hearing about how an average Joe or Jill coming out.
But as role models? Oh, I don’t know about that! What do you guys think about celebrities being sexuality role models because they’ve come out?
Holla!
Kdaddy23's Blog 
Olly
10 August 2014 at 19:17
From a representation point of view it’s great. I wish there had been more positive examples of successful (as well as famous) bisexuals when I was a teenager. Makes you feel less like a freak when finding your feet in the world. Also shows that, actually, you can be queer *and* do well in life. When I was growing up most of the “gay” storylines on tv involved AIDS or were fetishised lesbians for shock value; not great.
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kdaddy23
10 August 2014 at 19:26
I suppose you have a point, Olly; when I was a teen, there was no such thing as AIDS and they wouldn’t dare mention gays in TV good or bad. Everything has in the shadows and even the openly gay folks were keeping a very low profile except for Liberace, who was obviously gay and wasn’t afraid to let the world know it!
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Olly
10 August 2014 at 19:33
Ah, but you see Liberace fiercely denied his homosexuality (I don’t know who he thought he was fooling…) He famously won libel damages from a British tabloid paper in the 1950’s after they said he was gay.
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kdaddy23
10 August 2014 at 19:44
I know – it was pretty damned funny and he found it profitable but, yeah, he wasn’t fooling anyone. I guess since there were no celebs coming out when I was growing up, now that they are, it seems pointless to me and more so since a lot of people are seriously paying attention to celebrities in this instead of trying to gravitate to their own peers in this – their focus seems misplaced to me because some celeb out there has no reason to give a fuck about some unknown, unseen bisexual out in the regular world.
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Olly
10 August 2014 at 19:52
I do know what you mean. I don’t really like celebrity culture itself – especially as a lot of famous people seem to be famous for just that; they haven’t achieved anything or done anything worthy of note. It’s a bunch of vacuous people getting paid stupid money for doing very little (dear lord I sound so old… shoot me)
I guess that’s why I said “successful” rather than famous. Like that diving kid (yes I did just go google his name – Tom Daley). He’s a European Champion, a World Champion and an Olympic medallist. He’s also bi. That’s a role model. He’s worked hard for his achievements and he’s multisexual. It can only be a good thing.
I guess the other thing it does is “normalise” us for the monosexuals – especially the straight peeps; we know how flighty they can get. It shouldn’t be that way, I know. But we need all the positive propaganda we can get – especially after reading that blog post of yours about that woman saying bi guys are all disease-riddled cheaters!
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kdaddy23
10 August 2014 at 20:04
Again, I suppose you’re right since monosexuals feel that we have to be made real to them and, really, I think it sucks that we can no longer seem to accept a person for what they’ve done with their life – but how they like to love and have sex is now a prime determining factor. Tom Daley could have come out… and no one would have known that he had except the media made a big fucking deal out of it because of his Olympic fame. Us smart folks know that one’s sexuality does not define one’s successes or failures in life. If someone has claimed their fame and they happen to be gay or whatever, okay, it shows that one’s sexuality shouldn’t be made to be a yolk around your neck… except, before they used the media to come out, the general public had no idea what their sexuality was: Everyone’s straight until proven otherwise.
We know – or, at the least suspect – that Miley Cyrus was faking the funk because such a “stunning piece of news” would most certainly boost her popularity – and people would believe her just because she said it was so… then we find out that, oops, maybe what we were told wasn’t quite the truth… or was it?
Just another reason why I don’t give celebs coming out a lot of attention because other than their fame, they’re no different than anyone else and while I like certain actors, I don’t idolize them, hang on their every word when they’re not working, and I sure as hell don’t give a fuck if they’re gay, bi, or whatever because at the end of the day – and being somewhat selfish – their sexuality ain’t doing shit for me except maybe making more biphobic people look at me through jaded glasses, like that woman I wrote about. If I care about anything, Olly, it’s those bisexuals who need a real, down-to-earth person to connect with more than some famous person who, again, doesn’t even know that harried bisexual even exists. I’m sure the LGBTQ community just eats that shit up because if nothing else, it proves their point… but these are some of the same people who continue to insist that bisexuals don’t exist or are in denial about their true gay nature, too.
Grr…
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Olly
10 August 2014 at 20:15
From the other side of the glass, it can’t be easy being under the spotlight all the time, especially if you’re not “out”. You know that whole “I want the whole world to know I love you” bit – except that for people in the public eye it’s more literal than it is for little me – no one gives a flying fuck who I’m with and long may that continue!
In a perfect world, heteronormativity wouldn’t exist and people wouldn’t need to “come out” as such. I resent the whole institution to be honest; my sexual preference has zero bearing on my job or my Masters degree or my grade 8 piano (being bi didn’t make me fail that exam the first time round – having a temperature of 102° did that)
But while “straight until proven otherwise” remains, I guess it’s a combination of “giving teenagers something to relate to” and “not living a lie” with a certain element of “making a statement before a seedy tabloid outs me”.
Of course it doesn’t affect me directly, apart from a brief moment of “hello fellow multisexual, let me see if there’s room for you on my cool list”.
The LGBTQ community is a whole other can of worms mostly made of up G. The GGGGG community often forgets it’s sisters, bi-brethren and trans siblings. As you said, “grr”!
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kdaddy23
10 August 2014 at 21:02
I don’t have a problem with heteronormativity; I have a problem with their naïveté in that their way is the only way – and it never really was or is as evidenced by so many bisexuals, gays, and other folks.
**ADDITIONAL INPUT**
As far as “giving teenagers something to relate to” and “not living a lie” goes, don’t you think parents and not celebrities should handle this bit of business? They get told the truth of sexuality and without any adult prejudices mixed in then having something to relate to becomes easier and they don’t wind up living a lie – and then finding out the truth from someone else or, shudder, the hard way. Why talk to your children and educate them when they can look up to Ellen DeGeneris or some of the other “out” celebrities? Would you want your kid/kids finding out about sexuality by watching TV?
I happened to be re-reading what you wrote, Olly, and realized I had more to say about this. Here’s the important thing: Some famous person isn’t very damned likely to get their head handed to them because they came out… but there are many people, from teens to grown-assed people, who would get their heads handed to them because it looks easy for them to come out to the whole world – and it isn’t, not now and not even in the 21st century. Those same celebs do promos about bullying and their actions could quite possibly be feeding many impressionable teens to even more bullies because since they didn’t catch any flak in the media about coming out as gay or whatever, they might be naive enough to think that they won’t catch any either… and then get their whole life put into a garbage disposal as they face the hatred and prejudice that no celebrity would ever be made to face.
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Olly
11 August 2014 at 05:31
Those are really interesting points and this reply is probably going to get long :-p
I think we may have to agree to disagree over heteronormativity. It absolutely pisses me off that people assume everyone around them is straight and cisgender because it’s the source of people having to “come out” in the first place rather than being able to love who they want to without it turning into some mass interrogation – especially when heterosexuality as a term has only been around for 120 years or so.
It’s the reason why there’s such poor sex education in school, where only straight relationships and the nuclear family of mum, dad and 2.4 children is discussed. There’s a guy I follow on twitter who is 18 and campaigns for better LGBT sex ed after he was shot down in class for asking about gay sex. As you said – shouldn’t trusted and familiar adults be talking to our kids rather than famous people?
Of course in an ideal world, adults would talk to their kids (and maybe kids would talk to their parents, teachers, or other trusted adults). Mostly kids talk amongst themselves.
I hope kids can talk to someone. I think my folks would have had an aneurysm if I’d tried to talk about sex with them (heh – typical Brit) and in fairness to them I think I might have died on the spot if my folks had tried to broach the issue with me. Sex Ed at my school was more biological than emotional and very straight indeed (they were particularly keen that we learn how to put condoms on bananas) The first time I went with someone – a girl, in fact – we fumbled through it and made it up as we went along, working out what made each other tick. Never had a lesson, biological or otherwise, on the mechanics of two biologically female persons having sex.
But in the extremely unlikely event that Babe and I end up having kids I hope we’ll be able to step up and create an open environment where the kids feel safe enough to raise questions that Babe and I felt we weren’t able to ask our own parents.
I also have to disagree about the experiences of famous people when they come out. While undoubtedly different to Joe Bloggs on the street, it can still be a daunting experience, especially in the age of Social Media – it’s not just hate letters through the mail that you can hire someone to filter. There’s now the joys of twitter where thousands of people can scream at you about just how much you disgust them. Are they less likely to be beaten up in the street? To be shunned or refused service? Of course. But they still have families and private lives and there would still have been that terrifying moment between telling their loved one they weren’t straight and that loved one actually answering; that moment where you wondered if it was a good idea after all but you couldn’t take the words back.
I can only speak for the UK, but not too long ago being “out” could cost you your career. Two MPs who were outed by a newspaper lost their seats in the next election. There have only ever been 28 “out” MPs sitting in Parliament (21 of those are either current or in the last 10 years).
There are no openly gay footballers in the premier league – that’s not to say there aren’t any gay footballers, just that it would be seen as a bad move to come out. There have only been two openly gay English footballers. That’s appalling! That they feel that unsafe in their working environment. Football is probably as famous as it gets over here; it’s a huge industry that is constantly under the spotlight. If you’re a young gay or bi kid into football, the message is loud and clear; be straight or be invisible.
One that did come out, Justin Fashanu, killed himself: there was a massive backlash after he came out and his English football career was effectively ended overnight. After his death, his own brother claimed that he wasn’t really gay, just an attention seeker. That’s just so sad.
We see Elton John and Ellen DeGeneris and Graham Norton and it looks easy, but just the other day Anna Paquin was shooting down Larry King and his ridiculous questions about her sexuality. There’s still loads more to be done.
I do take your point about people needing to be safe. Absolutely, no one should feel pressurised into being “out” and should only come out if they feel safe and comfortable doing so. But looking at the history of people in the public eye being outed or shamed for being out I can only imagine it sent people scurrying further back inside the closet. Hopefully that’s on the turn now.
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kdaddy23
11 August 2014 at 10:12
We actually don’t disagree on heteronormativity; it pisses you off and I think they’re too naive for their own good. Now the rest of it, well, we’ll just have to see; your view in the UK and mine here in the US are a little different. Sports figures here not coming out – or not coming out in droves since one NFL and one NBA player has come out as gay here of late – doesn’t surprise me because the men, in particular, have an image to maintain, like rugby players and your footballers, they have this ultra-manly, rough and tough, thing going on that being gay would just totally negate… but that assumes that because he’s gay, he’s like some little bitch instead of the tough pro athlete he really is or if he is a little bitch off the field, that he can’t play the game at all and, obviously, none of this dumb shit is true.
I’m trying to get my head around the significance of celebrities coming out, the media’s fascination with them, and the effects it’s having on some bisexuals. Yes, teens, in particular, should have role models but, I dunno, Olly, my role models were my parents when I grew up; likewise, there were other known adults – like some of my teachers – that also took on the role model job. I don’t deny a celeb their fame – they worked for it, after all… but I still think there’s something wrong with, say, a football striker who comes out in the media that he’s gay being a role model… unless the meaning of the phrase has changed drastically over the years because what would he really be “teaching” a gay teen?
Celebrities here (anyway) are protected; any backlash they might get from the public has to go through their people and doesn’t even touch them and if anyone’s doing any riffing about their sexuality, it’s the media but, again, celebs pay people to deal with the media. Yes, they have to deal with their personal stuff – family and all that – but unless there’s some huge outroar of dislike – and there rarely is here – their status protects them to a large degree and it’s status that regular people don’t have – they have no insulation between themselves and the haters.
Okay, Sir Elton. When I read that he was gay, I was like, “Oh, really? How about that!” and since I don’t have anything against gays, I didn’t see it as a problem and mostly because his history as a composer, musician, and performer spoke louder than his being gay. Freddy Mercury: Well, if people didn’t know he was gay before it all came out, I don’t know what they were paying attention to, you know? But, again, working with Queen and the groups accomplishments overshadowed Freddy’s gayness until, sadly, it wound up killing him.
Were either of them role models? Probably to some but even to someone like me, that you can be as gay as a six-pound note and it means nothing and says nothing about your ability to achieve fame or, yeah, do whatever the fuck you wanna do in life. It didn’t stop them; it shouldn’t stop anyone else. It’s a gorgeous idea and a worthy stand to take… except, again, celebrities – if their people do their jobs right – are insulated from the haters where the average Joe or Jill have little to no insulation, no protection against the fanatical heteronormative folks.
Careers are made and broken, as you mentioned with Justin Fashanu. Larry King gets paid to ask those ridiculous questions; he gets paid to antagonize and push people’s buttons so, on the whole, that doesn’t mean nothing because even with his famous career, he’s still the media, ain’t he… and we know how they like to behave about such things. And you make a damned good point in your last paragraph that if/when a celeb gets shamed all to hell and ruined, it can send a signal to all who are not straight and not out to stay in their closets because in the real world, it’s not as safe as it appears to be and I’d rather someone not come out and spend time in the closet figuring out what all of this means to them than to have them be emboldened by a favorite celebrity coming out so they come out… and get crucified.
I’m enjoying this dialog and since it’s my blog, I don’t care how much you write when you comment. You write it, I’ll read it.
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Olly
11 August 2014 at 17:16
You know, it’s funny because I read an article in the Guardian today on just this subject – but relating to trans issues rather than sexuality.
Kellie Maloney came out as trans a few days ago and there was the typical media storm. The tabloids were suitably “look at the freak” about it all, misgendering left right and centre whilst not quite being openly transphobic, just their usual sensationlist rubbish. The broadsheets dealt with it with a touch more decorum – more “we’re reporting this but we don’t necessarily understand it” in tone than anything else.
Then this article appeared: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/11/kellie-maloney-transgender-frank
and when I read it I thought of you because it’s essentially what you’ve been saying; what’s the big deal? how does this affect me?
Role models come in all shapes and sizes. With her history of homophobia and racism (some of the stuff they’ve gone on record as saying would make a neanderthal blush) and being a member of UKIP, to boot, I definitely wouldn’t say she was a role model. But, it is visibility of a sort.
It’s funny, because a lot of people who have attacked the author of that piece have been cishet people, decrying that it was a terribly brave thing to do and we should all get up and applaud.
What we should actually be doing is looking at our society where stepping out as ourselves causes so much interest. Once again we return to the issue of heteronormativity and cissexism. If these things didn’t exist the whole “coming out” thing would be pointless.
It’s interesting what you say about Freddie. He was actually bi. A lot of people forget that because he was in a M/M relationship, thus erasing his previous relationship with women.
I’ve been pondering this a lot today. When my folks found out my brother was left handed they made a list of famous people who were also left handed and stuck it on the fridge. Obviously their being left handed had very little bearing on their lives (although an argument could be made for Paul McCartney whose playing style was definitely influenced by the way he held a guitar) but it made my brother feel better because he was the only kid in his class who was left handed and his first Reception teacher had tried to force him to write with his right hand.
I guess that’s sort of what it’s like when you’re questioning your own sexuality. The little flock of sheep you were herding with suddenly doesn’t want you anymore so you look around for other sheep like yourself.
That flock was pretty small when I was doing the looking; Greta Garbo, well she was dead. David Bowie – that was a complicated one, he seems to change his mind depending on who is asking the question. Alan Cumming was a cool discovery, as was Pete Townsend as I’m a massive Who fan.
It wasn’t so much about searching for role models as searching for others – the sense that I wasn’t alone; I exist.
The whole thing about celebrities as role models is a bit of a sticky one. I don’t necessarily look up to someone just because they’re queer – non-straight people are more than capable of being arseholes. Similarly I don’t not look up to someone because they’re straight. They might not be like me, but I can still admire them for their achievements. Their sexuality has very little bearing on the whole thing.
But I do think visibility is important if only for the “you are not alone” factor. Even if it means a queer kid sitting in their room on this big secret that they’ll never tell anyone. It’s not for the straight people anyway. It’s for that kid to make the first big step of accepting themselves.
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kdaddy23
12 August 2014 at 09:48
You know, I can really think of a lot of ways this could help people… if only we could think of celebrities as people instead of folks to “look up to.” Does sexuality get some much-needed visibility? Yes! Should some folks be making decisions about their life and sexuality because, let’s say, David Bowie finally decided to stop bullshitting people and admit that he’s gay or bi at the least? No, I really don’t although the message one can grab onto is that if these famous people are still famous despite their sexuality (and that’s because no one has the gall to fuck with them about it), then sexuality shouldn’t hold anyone back… which doesn’t change the fact that it does for a whole lot of people.
It could be for the straight people, you know, especially those who don’t believe that bisexuals exist or they still think that gays are merely godless demons. Once you see it, you can’t un-see it, right? Doesn’t mean that they’re gonna change their minds but it could change it, little by little.
Transgender, cisgender… wow. I can’t say I blame the media for kinda glossing it over because I don’t pretend to fully understand the dynamics in play with these folks; I tend to think of it as trying to prove a negative. I don’t think science will ever figure out the mechanisms at play here because even if some psychology-types could effectively explain why “Bob,” who was born male but believes that he’s really “Barb” and should have been born a woman, damn, I’m sorry, but the genetics just don’t lie and this will keep science off balance trying to make sense of this and if they can’t make sense of it, it’s a safe bet that the media can’t. Is this some kind of personality ‘disorder’? Damned if I know; the one transgender I know seems to be pretty sane and well-adjusted to me despite her decision to go from being male to female.
I admit to being… biased, I suppose is a good word because I had to deal with my sexuality without any mentoring, role models, organizational help, stuff like that so I’m a little conflicted on the whole matter… but I still don’t think that celebrities should be cast in the role of role models and merely because they decided to come out for some reason.
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Olly
21 August 2014 at 02:33
I guess it’s a little similar to how I don’t understand monosexuality because I’m not monosexual. Gender Identity and Biology are two completely different creatures and when they don’t quite match up it can be hellish.
It’s not all about expression either – although that can play a huge part in it. Essentially the concept of gender (rather than biology) is a social construct – different roles assigned to different people based upon their chromosomes or reproductive parts have very little to do with the wider world (ie what clothes you wear, what jobs you are suited for etc) Our modern expectation that “men” shouldn’t wear dresses and that girls should like pink have no link to the reproductive process – they’re entirely related to social bias.
But more than gender expression, gender identity represents what’s going on in your head, how you feel and how you see yourself.
For cis gendered people, what’s going on in your body and in your brain matches up so you are comfortable in your own skin.
For trans people it’s not so simple, and it would be impossible to understand just how horrific it is to love like that unless you’re actually living it (just like the monosexuals don’t understand multisexuality and therefore refuse to believe it exists because they only like one gender so that’s how it is).
It’s not a personality disorder or a mental illness it’s just one of those things. There have been some medical journals published that show the dysphoria felt by trans people isn’t just psychological but also biological which is fascinating.
I agree with what you said – celebrities need to be seen as people rather than the untouchables but sometimes I think we “see” a little too much. There are certain facets of the media who enjoy bringing them down onto the ground with the rest of us plebs in warts-n-all exposés.
I guess different people take different things from a situation like this. I can only hope the positives far away the negatives and that anyone who may feel “inspired” does so in a safe environment.
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kdaddy23
12 August 2014 at 09:48
You know, I can really think of a lot of ways this could help people… if only we could think of celebrities as people instead of folks to “look up to.” Does sexuality get some much-needed visibility? Yes! Should some folks be making decisions about their life and sexuality because, let’s say, David Bowie finally decided to stop bullshitting people and admit that he’s gay or bi at the least? No, I really don’t although the message one can grab onto is that if these famous people are still famous despite their sexuality (and that’s because no one has the gall to fuck with them about it), then sexuality shouldn’t hold anyone back… which doesn’t change the fact that it does for a whole lot of people.
It could be for the straight people, you know, especially those who don’t believe that bisexuals exist or they still think that gays are merely godless demons. Once you see it, you can’t un-see it, right? Doesn’t mean that they’re gonna change their minds but it could change it, little by little.
Transgender, cisgender… wow. I can’t say I blame the media for kinda glossing it over because I don’t pretend to fully understand the dynamics in play with these folks; I tend to think of it as trying to prove a negative. I don’t think science will ever figure out the mechanisms at play here because even if some psychology-types could effectively explain why “Bob,” who was born male but believes that he’s really “Barb” and should have been born a woman, damn, I’m sorry, but the genetics just don’t lie and this will keep science off balance trying to make sense of this and if they can’t make sense of it, it’s a safe bet that the media can’t. Is this some kind of personality ‘disorder’? Damned if I know; the one transgender I know seems to be pretty sane and well-adjusted to me despite her decision to go from being male to female.
I admit to being… biased, I suppose is a good word because I had to deal with my sexuality without any mentoring, role models, organizational help, stuff like that so I’m a little conflicted on the whole matter… but I still don’t think that celebrities should be cast in the role of role models and merely because they decided to come out for some reason.
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